The Reality Is
Welcome to "The Reality Is," a podcast where the pastors of Crossroads Community Church gather to discuss the practical application of biblical principles in our daily lives. Join us as we explore how faith can guide us through the challenges and triumphs of real life. Whether it's relationships, work, or personal growth, we're here to help you live out your faith meaningfully. This podcast's premise is about how to apply biblical principles to our everyday lives. Tune in for insightful conversations that inspire and empower you to pursue Christ with every moment of your life.
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The Reality Is
The Art of Christian Mentorship
Join Pastor Joey and Pastor Richard as they unpack the concept of mentorship within a Christian context. They discuss what it means to be a Biblical mentor and how mentorship differs from other forms of leadership and guidance. The episode covers practical advice on seeking and becoming a mentor, rooted in scriptural insights and personal experiences.
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You and I were talking about Proverbs earlier and I've got a verse about giving instruction to a wise man, and he will still be wiser. Teach a righteous man and he will increase in his learning. That's Proverbs 9.9. But you were talking to me about a verse from Proverbs that talks about a man's folly, and it's one of those things where, even as you were talking, I was thinking well, how many people actually even know about folly? Folly is just foolishness. You know, and I thought man as a mentor. As we're talking about mentorship and we're telling people how to seek out a mentor, one of the important things is that person has got to be able to wisely instruct you, be able to give you the wisdom that you need to know to help you walk through life's situations.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Reality Is podcast, where we're here to talk about real life and real faith. My name is Joey, I'm joined by Richard and once again, we were talking about something this morning and you had to throw a little jab at me. We're having a friendly conversation about what it was like to fish and to hunt and do these type of things, which, by the way, we're doing a really cool thing here at the church. The guys are doing a hey, we're going to do this fishing tournament thing. I don't even know if it's a tournament, but we're all going to go and fish and then, after you fish, whatever you catch, you're going to fry up and you're going to have this fish fry thing, which sounds amazing. And you and I started talking and saying, hey, so is this kind of one of those things where, whatever you catch, you eat.
Speaker 2:And you looked at me and said you'll be hungry if it is, but it was biblical. The Bible says says speak the truth and love and and the truth is, you would be hungry if you had to eat what you call what I call because I am not good at catching.
Speaker 1:We have discovered that, uh, I became. I don't think you remember I sent you a shirt that says uh warning. You could be used as an illustration exactly, and I was actually used as an illustration once after I went fishing with you and I said well, there you go, be fishers of men, but Joey, please don't fish for men like you.
Speaker 2:fish in real life, yeah.
Speaker 1:That's horrible man and this is who I call a mentor. Guys Speaking of what we're going to be talking about today mentorship, that's what we've decided to talk about. We've done friendship and then we've done accountability what it means to have an accountability partner. But really last week we were talking about a mentorship and what that looks like, because that's different from what we've been talking about, and we said it'd be nice to talk about what mentorship looks like on this podcast, and that's what we're going to be talking about today mentorship. I looked it up and it says it's an experienced and trusted advisor. It also says it's a trusted counselor or guide, and those are great surface, I think, definitions for mentorship.
Speaker 1:But I want to find out what the Bible has to say about mentorship. I think it was about three, three and a half years ago, before you were the pastor at this church. You came to our church and you did this men's discipleship study for us and you really dug deep into mentorship and what it looks like for us to be a biblical mentor, a Christian mentor, and so I just want to turn it over to you today because you have so many notes about it. I still have notes from that conference that you did for us, but there's so many good topics, so many good things that you had to say about it, and so I'm really excited to hear you share with these people on the podcast today what it looks like to be a mentor.
Speaker 2:You know, as we talk about mentoring, one of the things that is important to us here as our pastoral staff here at the church, all of us have people in our life that we're mentoring, that we're pouring into. We believe strongly that it's impossible to help men grow in their faith without investing in them personally the Apostle Paul. I think one of the most wonderful statements that we can make when we're talking about mentoring is 1 Corinthians 11, in verse 1, and he tells us imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. Now, when we hear those words it sounds almost arrogant right, imitate me. But he's not saying be the apostle Paul. He's saying, as you're trying to figure life out, as you're trying to figure out coming out of this lostness and coming into salvation, and you're trying to understand what it means to walk with Christ, he's saying, while you're learning that, watch me and I will walk with Christ and you can learn from that. And that's a big statement. I was going to say that's a really bold statement.
Speaker 1:How many of us can actually look at somebody and say here's what I want you to do. I want you to investigate me, I want you to dig deep into my life and I want you to do the things that I'm doing? Because there's a lot of times I go look bro, don't do it. How many times do I say here's a movie I don't recommend for you to watch? But let me tell you what happened in the movie.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Yeah, I don't recommend you to watch this, but let me tell you how cool it is. So, yeah, something doesn't work with that conversation, no, it doesn't. And yet, as we talk about mentoring, I think the definition you gave to begin with is absolutely the correct definition for mentoring. The problem with that definition is, for lack of a better way to put it it's a one-size-fits-all and we're not talking about mentoring someone in business. I'm not talking about mentoring someone even in any other aspect of life other than their Christian walk and in their life. I found this definition, and I've used it for a long time, when it talks about what is a Christian mentor, and it says a Christian mentor is a Jesus follower who helps others follow Jesus in a one-on-one setting.
Speaker 2:Love that definition I mean, how clear is it I'm a Jesus follower and so I'm going to help others. It goes on to say they regularly spend time with their mentee, sharing stories, teaching and encouraging their spiritual growth. And that's what it means, spiritual growth, and that's what it means when we talk about investing in others. I think one of the things we always have to remember is there's no one size fits all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, can't be. Well, you have people that you're mentoring. I have people that I'm mentoring. Here's what I'm not going to do. Okay, so for person A, b, c and D, I'm going to use this same script on all of them. Well, they're all going through different phases of their life, different stages. In fact. They're not even the same people. They aren't engaged in the same things, they don't like the same things. So it's got to be catered to that individual person. There's not a one-size-fits-all for any type of mentorship in life.
Speaker 2:Person there's not a one-size-fits-all for any type of mentorship in life, but I've had people come to me over the years and ask me both when I was in law enforcement prior to coming into ministry, I sometimes would have young officers and ask me to mentor to help them grow in their abilities of being an officer and then coming into ministry. The thing about it is, though, everyone that's asked me to mentor them has not always been a good fit, and there's a number of reasons. It could be schedules that make the fit bad. There's a number of things, and so the one size fits all is, like you said, 100% it's not. I can't sit down with a script and mentor, but every person that asked me to mentor them is not necessarily a good fit for me. Even you and I've done that. We've passed people from one to the other.
Speaker 2:I've said to people, Joey may be a better person for you to talk with.
Speaker 1:This is I'm like you want to deal with Richard on this one.
Speaker 2:And that's okay. It's recognizing that not every person is a fit. Now that doesn't mean that we're not friends, it doesn't mean that we can't, you know. It just means that this mentoring relationship goes much deeper than saying I'm going to give you 30 minutes a week or whatever. So I think that's important when we think about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And there's so many different examples in the Bible of mentorship and what it looks like. It's from Old Testament to New Testament. You look at Moses. You look New Testament. You look at Moses. You look at Peter, who's the disciple. You look at Jesus, you look at Barnabas. All these people were discipling. They were saying here's what I need to do. But what they didn't do is they didn't say I'm going to treat this person the same way I was treating this other person, because, especially with Moses and what was happening with his father-in-law during the time where he says okay, I see how you're trying to lead I think you brought this up last week. Here you are, moses, you're trying to do something. I've got to show you a different way to do this, because he was mentoring, he was pouring into his life, but he didn't use the same thing say that he was using back when he was trying to mentor him of what it meant to be a son-in-law. So there was two different type of mentoring that had to take place, even with the one person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, when Moses came to the wilderness, he had been raised in a palace and now he's a shepherd. You can be certain there was some mentoring going on there. Yep, you can be certain there was some mentoring going on there. But it's interesting when you talk about Moses, because his father-in-law was mentoring him, even in leadership principles, and came to Moses early on and said Moses, you're going to have to work on your leadership. Yes, indeed, but then we see that Moses began to mentor Joshua. Thank you, and I would argue that, just as in discipleship, true mentoring has not ran its full circle until you're mentoring someone, who begins to mentor someone Exactly.
Speaker 1:Exactly. So what does mentoring look like? That's kind of what we want to talk about today. I believe people are going to be listening going okay. Well, I heard you guys talking about discipleship, and isn't discipleship the same thing as mentoring? Or isn't accountability the same thing as mentoring? Why are you guys bringing up a whole different subject just to talk about the same thing? And I want them to clearly understand this is not the same thing.
Speaker 2:Right, I think there's some qualities that you have to look for. So the difference in accountability is, quite honestly, anyone can be an accountability partner to me. Anyone who walks with God can be an accountability partner to me. That's someone that I'm willing to open myself up to, and we talked about what that looks like last week. The difference, I would argue, would be a Christian mentor, someone who's going to pour into me.
Speaker 2:From that aspect, there's just some qualities that I'm going to look for in that person because, quite honestly, not everyone is in a position to mentor me. They may walk with God, they may be mature, they may be phenomenal people, but they're not in a position to mentor me for a number of reasons. So let's talk about just a little bit about what I think needs to be in that person. First of all, I need someone who's been there. Okay, so if I'm looking for a mentor in my life, then I need someone that has been there. Then I need someone that has been there, and what I mean by that is someone who has walked with God, and not someone who's still trying to figure out this faith thing, or not someone who is not able to share in the experiences in any way whatsoever with what I'm wanting to deal with or walk with and that's extremely important.
Speaker 1:I mean just yesterday a guy who I've been meeting with. He's now at that phase of life where he's like, okay, I've got this girl in my life and I believe I'm supposed to get married to her, but how do you know, joey? And I'm thinking, oh wow, I've got a story for you and for those of you who have heard my story of what it took for me to actually finally propose to my wife. It's a crazy one, but I was able to share that with him. This is something I've already been through and I can give him biblical wisdom behind what he's supposed to be doing, what he's supposed to be looking for, how he's supposed to behave, and also I'm able to tell him and this is how it happened in my life, these are the things that I did.
Speaker 1:This is what I did wrong. Sometimes you just got to admit hey, I can mentor you, because actually I went the wrong way during this time and I'm going to try to steer you away from doing that. And now I'm leading you into what you should be doing. That's mentoring, even in hey, I know what you should do, but I've experienced the things that you shouldn't do and let me help you through not doing that, as well, exactly, and so it is someone who's been there and I just really hope that the girl knows this guy thinks he should marry her.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying that.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, she's the one who said it and that's what made him go wait what Okay?
Speaker 2:different topic, but it really is, and I think when I'm talking to someone and I want to make sure they've been there, I want to make sure that they're operating with Scripture as their foundation, absolutely Okay, because I don't want someone sitting down and talking to me about growing in whatever area that I need to grow in and everything's their opinion, and so I think that is just absolutely critical. I know that over the years I've had men in my life that have spoken into different phases and times of my ministry where I'm at, men that for lack of a better word, men that were just a little bit further along that journey than I was. A man by the name of Frank Hopkins was the senior adult pastor at the church where I accepted the call to preach at. Frank took me under his wing and walked with me, used to tell me all the time he would say, son, I've dealt with a few people with a few rough edges, but you are a rough edge and so that's kind of where I started with Frank.
Speaker 2:But you know he walked with me through every step. When I first started pastoring I was in a small church and I did everything, which is not uncommon in a single-staff church. It was a privilege, not a burden. But when it was time to serve my first Lord's Supper I mean I was supposed to prepare the elements I was supposed to serve, I was supposed to I didn't have a clue right. And so Frank actually came to the church and walked with me through that. He mentored me through that.
Speaker 2:My first baptism he filled up the baptistry at the church not ours, but another church, and a friend of mine, scott and I ours, but another church, and a friend of mine, scott and I baptized each other about 50 times until Frank said, okay, I'm satisfied, he mentored us. It worked for me, scott, I still think. But he mentored us and he walked us through that. And I'll never forget one day when Frank looked at me and just said to me he says you know, you've gone beyond what I ever. And it was just that confirmation that I had gone from being a rough edge to having rough edge.
Speaker 2:But that's what a mentor is. Frank had pastored for 50 years and, instead of saying I've done my time and I'm going to retire, he invested in me and a half a dozen young guys. That's great, right, so it's the one that's been there. I think that's the first thing we have to look at. I think we also have to remember that if you have a desire to be a Christian mentor or you're looking for one, they don't have to be perfect Good point, because none of us are at all.
Speaker 2:Some of us don't know that.
Speaker 1:Let me rephrase that Some of them don't know that. See, I was about to go there and I left it alone. I'm like, eh, okay.
Speaker 2:I was going to stop that before you did.
Speaker 1:You saw me reaching my hands towards you. I did yeah.
Speaker 2:But it is a thing. Sometimes we think we don't have anything to offer someone and we think, well, I'm not perfect and I'll agree if I'm in my sin and I'm happy there. I have nothing to offer. Yeah, you cannot. But I also have to realize. It's just as you said. You were able to pour into this young man from a personal story in your own life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you were not telling him, the way I did it was the perfect way to do it. Oh gosh, no. But what you were telling him is this is my journey, this is my story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, and through all my weaknesses and all my failures and all my hey, yeah, I just, you know, I'm trying to hear from God on this and like five people have already spoken to me in confirmation through what the Lord had already put in my heart, and I'm still going yeah, I just don't know. You know I'm going no, no. But finally when it smacked me in the face, I was like, oh, I got it and that's what I was explaining to him. So the way I went about doing it was absolutely. It was not the perfect way, it did not look good at all, but it was my experience and now I share that with others so that they can kind of know what not to do and they can do the right thing.
Speaker 2:And I think that is so key in a mentoring relationship is not that I'm setting myself up as the perfect example, but what I'm doing is I'm saying I made mistakes along the way. Yeah, you know, my daughters have heard from the time they were old enough to start making mistakes of their own. You can go down that rat hole if you want to, or you can ask me. I'll tell you what it looks like down there, and so that's part of mentoring, that's part of letting them know. I don't claim to be perfect, but what I do claim is that I'm willing to share with you my mistakes and my failures, to prevent you from making the same one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely Okay. So you've told us life experience. You know somebody who's been there. They don't have to be perfect, which is that should be freeing for everybody out there who feels like man, I want to be a mentor, but I just I've done so many bad things in my life. Great, use those bad things because you have been forgiven for those. As long as you're not doing those bad things, like you said before and oh, I'm comfortable in these bad things I'm doing. No, I've gotten through those bad things, so I'm not perfect. I've gotten through them. Use those as your life experience, which is what you talked about before, to pour into somebody else. What else I think you have?
Speaker 2:to be willing to invest in someone. When we're talking about investing in someone, true mentoring it takes time, it takes investment and, honestly, it takes some preparation, because I have to think back to the last time we had a conversation and I have to think forward of how to continue to help with that, to talk about that world, which kind of reminds me that it's an investment. I've got and I know you do as well. I've got guys that I meet with early, early in the morning. Well, some people think it's early.
Speaker 1:Sometimes for me it's just too early in the morning, oh gosh.
Speaker 2:But I've got others that I meet with at various times, various places, and it's an investment in their life, and part of that is sacrificing yourself to be able to do that.
Speaker 1:I mean, as you know, I'm a night owl, so I love my mornings, I love to be able to sleep in. But there are days where I say, hey, I've got to meet with this person, or I've got to meet with this group, I've got to get up at five o'clock in the morning. I know you've already done everything by five o'clock in the morning, but I've got to get up at five o'clock in the morning so that I could have this time to do that. And what I've always said is by seven o'clock I feel great, like I hate five o'clock in the morning, I really do. But after I've gone through what I have done by seven, I'm like, oh, this was the greatest time, exactly.
Speaker 2:And I think that is part of investing your life. It is recognizing where you're the most good to someone and, quite honestly, if someone wanted to meet with you consistently at 4.30 in the morning, that probably is not the best route for you. You know, I'm sending them to you, it's the same. If somebody wants to meet with me at nine o'clock at night, I'm sorry. You come my way I tell them nine o'clock comes around once a day, right? Mentoring is incredibly rewarding, but we always have to remember.
Speaker 2:it does come with challenges, and part of investing my life is just another angle of that or another thing. Christian mentors have to learn to ask a lot of questions.
Speaker 1:Yes, they do.
Speaker 2:And I can't do that if I'm not investing in you. And so when you think of a mentor, you probably think this person has all the answers. Well, let me tell you, there are very few things that you can help someone more with than helping them find their own answer.
Speaker 1:Thank you, and that's a very good point, because a lot of times in them talking and I've discovered this so many times they'll start talking and then they'll start answering their own questions, and then they'll start quoting their own verses that they have heard from the Lord, and then they've turned around and they've already got it. But now, if I'm the one who's just constantly talking to them, I guess I'm just more of a lecturer At that point. All I'm doing is giving them a lesson. You're a teacher talking to a student.
Speaker 2:There you go, but you're not a mentor and you know I want to be careful because they find their own answer.
Speaker 1:Make sure that answer is the right answer. I said from the Bible in the verses.
Speaker 2:I don't want them walking out of there going. I'm comfortable in my sin.
Speaker 1:No, not at all.
Speaker 2:One of the things that I talk to people about often about evangelism is just three simple words, and it works in mentoring as well. You ask a question, you listen, you let them and then you speak Scripture and wisdom back into that. It works in a number of ways in our encounters and mentoring is absolutely essential. Now, one of the things that we have a real problem with and I'll admit it's one of those things that I have to struggle with because I'm a teacher yeah, that's what I do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I teach. Yes, you do.
Speaker 2:And so I have to be careful, when I'm in a mentoring situation, to ask and fall silent. And you know, one of the things that bothers us is silence, but silence is not your enemy.
Speaker 1:No, it's actually a good thing, my wife. So when we're out in groups and stuff and we're meeting with people, I do talk a lot. I know people are shocked by that, rhett. It's like, oh wow, joey's talking again.
Speaker 1:Look at that my wife will do this loving thing where she just places her hand on my knee, which lets me know baby Joey's talking again. Look at that. My wife will do this loving thing where she just places her hand on my knee, which lets me know, baby, it's time for you to shut up. Okay, let somebody else speak now. But that is so important to give people that opportunity to talk.
Speaker 2:Well, I think one of the things, if're listening and and they have someone they call a mentor yeah, and they never get to talk in that they probably need to find a new mentor because they have a great teacher and they can keep learning if they're learning, but they're but they're not part of mentoring is is me helping someone understand how to make their own decisions?
Speaker 2:yeah, and, and if I'm making them, I them. I was on a conversation yesterday and in the conversation, finally, the person said to me they said will you just tell me?
Speaker 1:And I said no, I won't Pat that Plutiot and they said.
Speaker 2:But you know, I said I do, I do, I absolutely do. But then I asked the question how is it going to help you if I just tell you and you need to understand how to get there? Absolutely. And so I think it's absolutely essential that you ask questions and you're dealing with someone that is willing to ask you the hard questions, because if all we're doing is playing a little dance and we're not asking the hard questions of life, then we're not helping one another.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that surfacing is never going to help. You've got to get deep, you've got to go deeper with them and, like you said, you can't just give them the answers. I'm going through a study with someone and they literally said you can't just give them the answers. I'm going through a study with someone and they literally say well, what's the answer to this question? No, the whole point is for you to dig deep within yourself and figure that answer out.
Speaker 2:You know, and I think it's worth mentioning right here there's no such thing as a mutual mentoring relationship. Okay, you and I are and we've said this so many times and people probably get tired of us saying it but we're not just pastors and co-laborers in the gospel. We're good friends, absolutely, and we have a friendship relationship where we talk about the hard topics of life, we talk about the funny things of life, we just enjoy each other's company. That's a friendship and you have those. But I have really good friends of mine that we're close friends with. They're guys that I call on when I need advice or whatever, but they're not my mentors. You can't have a mutual mentoring relationship and I think you have to be careful of that. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Where we call it a mentoring relationship just because we have a conversation with someone, and so it is very essential that we think about that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, very much so. So life experience is find somebody who's been there, know that they aren't going to be perfect, know that if you're mentoring someone you're not perfect. Hear that, be willing to invest in their life, and that means giving of yourself, like not just hey, I'm going to, but no, there's a sacrifice that has to take place. If you're mentoring somebody else, what else you got?
Speaker 2:Well, they have to be growing in their faith, and I think it has to be both sides. If I'm entering into a mentoring relationship with you and you're not growing in your faith and so otherwise you're not being stretched by anyone, then quite honestly it should not take me long to outpace you and you're no longer a value to me.
Speaker 2:And because if you're not growing in your faith, you have nothing to feed into me. So when I say growing in your faith, it's got to be someone that has that personal devotional time, that growth time. And then the other side of that is, if I'm mentoring someone and I don't see growth coming out of that person, at that point I've got to answer this one of two ways. Either I'm not doing anything that's beneficial to them or they're not paying attention to anything I have to say, and either way the question has to be answered is this really a mentoring relationship or is this just a good time to get together and have a cup of coffee and laugh?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And at what point do you say, man, that's got to stop, because we've got to figure this out. You're not growing, I'm not growing, it's just, we're hanging out and we're having a good time hanging out. But call it what it is, that's no longer hey, this is a mentorship relationship. We're just a couple of guys getting together hanging out.
Speaker 2:And I think that's so important because it's a matter of growing in your faith. And you know, it's really good for me, because when I'm mentoring someone and I'm spending time with them, and so I ask them a question, and in that question they begin to grapple for an answer and so they fight within themselves looking for that answer, and we work with some scripture and we leave it very often with, okay, let's think through this, let's spend some time in the scriptures this week and let's open our time together next week with this topic.
Speaker 2:Well guess what I got to spend time doing this week Dirty in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I literally just did that to somebody last week. I said hey, I want you to answer this question for me, but I actually want you to take some time with this, because we were just talking about things and again I'm pouring in and then this question came up and I said you know what? This isn't one of those we're just going to lightly brush over, and so here's what I want you to do. I want you to go home, I want you to think about this question and next week, when we get together, this is what we're going to tackle this question right here. And he's like well, I'll think about it right now. I said great, think about it right now, but I want you to go home. It's been time with this one. Yeah, because you never want to just brush over something.
Speaker 2:No, you don't. And they've got to be growing in their faith.
Speaker 2:Yes indeed, and if not, you've got to ask the question again what's the benefit of this? I think we find a great example of that as the Apostle Paul. We know the pastoral epistles and he's writing to young pastors, young guys. He's investing in Timothy 1 and 2, timothy, titus, the book of Titus, and we can word those in a couple of different ways, but honestly they're mentoring letters. He's saying okay, let's begin to deal with this, let's think through what's taking place, and we got to show that growing faith. We absolutely have to. So I think if we keep those areas in our life, then it helps us to find that mentor or be that mentor, because those need to be the qualities I'm looking for and those also need to be the qualities that I know that I'm displaying as I'm mentoring.
Speaker 1:Exactly. And as the mentee, you've got to be willing to say I want to grow in faith. And as the mentor, you have to look at that person and say, oh, here's a person who's willing to grow in faith, they're willing to make that change in their life. Because, again, it's not a mental relationship if you're just hanging out, and so one of the first things I do when I get together with somebody, I basically lay out hey, this is what we're going to do, this is what I'm looking for, this is probably about how long it's going to last, and then this is what I want to see you do afterwards. Are you willing to do that?
Speaker 1:Because if you're not willing to do that, this isn't the type of relationship that I would call a mentor relationship. And gosh, I please I don't want this to sound the wrong way, but I got enough people to hang out with. Exactly, I don't mean that rude, I don't want that to sound bad, but I got enough people to hang out with in my life. That's not real investment. I want to make sure this is something you want to do, you're willing to be invested in and you're willing to take that and change. And then you're willing to say, hey, I want to do this with somebody else.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think that's important. We've got to set expectations. If you don't set expectations on the boundaries of the mentoring relationship, the next thing you know you're talking about everything coming and going but you're not dealing with their growth or the issues, their growth or the issues. I personally do not enter into open-ended mentoring relationships. I always say we'll meet for the next three months or for the next six or whatever, and then we'll evaluate and we'll go from there. I think that's setting an expectation and that expectation is at the end of this three months or six weeks, whatever it is we can go back and say, okay, this has been beneficial.
Speaker 2:I tell men all the time and, by the way, you mentor men, you do not mentor anyone of the opposite sex. It's men to men, women to women, and that's a whole different podcast of the problems that happen with that. So the mentoring relationship is designed to last, but I also would argue there reaches a point that I may not be the best one to continue with this person and I still. I've been in ministry for a lot of years. I've spent a lot of time, I've been blessed, I've got 12 years of advanced school and so forth and so on. I've got a lot of good and godly people in my life and I'm thankful for that. But I still seek out mentors in my life and people that can speak into my life?
Speaker 1:Yeah, as we constantly should. Exactly, You're never done growing. You're never done growing in your faith, and you're never too far along spiritually to say, oh well, I don't have anything I can learn from this person.
Speaker 2:No, no, but I do think there needs to be parameters. I think there needs to be a set. This is what our meetings are going to look like. Yeah, and so if you're going to sit down with somebody in a mentoring relationship, you need to say we're going to meet for 45 minutes. If not, you're sitting there three and a half hours later and you know there needs to be definite parameters. And I think there is a time for me and my mentees to go fishing, if you will, to talk about fishing, talk about hunting, talk about golf, whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:All right, but when I sit down in a meeting that is specifically designed to be a mentoring meeting, I'll be truthful with you. I don't have a lot of small talk in that meeting. I move into what we're there for. I don't have a lot of small talk in that meeting. I move into what we're there for, because we have a parameter and we have a set time, and so now that to some may sound too structured, but quite honestly, if we don't do it that way, I would argue that we find ourselves wasting time and not making the best of our time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but remember we did a podcast about focus. Yeah, exactly. If we don't do that, guess the rabbit trails that we're going to be on in our mentor conversations. It's like, man, hold on, bring it back. Can we bring God back into this conversation please?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that goes back to we'll decide what we're going to talk about.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, and so I think I have some relationships, some mentoring relationships, where, quite honestly, they're open-ended for lack of a better way. Otherwise, they're young pastors, they're young men in their faith, or they're men that have young men in their faith, or they're men that have walked deeper in their faith, but yet I'm helping them understand better mentoring, coaching techniques. Okay, and so what's the focus? What are we going to talk about? And a lot of times, I'd like to end this week with a focus of where we're going next week.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, that's good, that's really really good. I'm going to apply actually some of that too, because I've never said, hey, I'm going to meet for this amount of time, as far as weeks and months. I've just said when we get through, and I probably need to go back and say this is how long it should take to get through and this is how long we're going to get together, and then we'll evaluate after that.
Speaker 2:And exactly. And you may well say we're going to spend three months talking about this and then at the end of those three months you turn around and you say you know what this has been really beneficial. And they may ask you can you continue to walk with me through this? Absolutely, and if that's the case and you both find it beneficial, then you extend out. But I think in anything we do there needs to be an exit ramp.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and it's good for everybody. That's a good way to put it an exit ramp, visually. Got to get off this highway. Yeah Right, that's good. All right. So life experience, which you called it something else. You actually said someone who's been there. You're not perfect, you're investing. Both of you guys are growing in faith. Did you have another one for us?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, I gave pretty well, as we're growing and we're setting these boundaries and we're setting these times. I think that really just kind of takes us into a different idea. And that is what are the qualities, because these are some, for lack of a better way, these are some things that need to be there, that we talked about those five areas. But if you're going to be a mentor, if they're listening to us and they're saying you know what? I think I have something to offer and I want to be careful, because that's not a prideful statement. I've had people say to me I don't have anything to offer and I tell them but you do, and so what are some things that we need to say? What are the areas of my life that need to be there?
Speaker 2:And I don't want to beat the point, but I think we've talked about willing. I have to be willing to give up time, but I want to add one to that willing, and that is I got to be honest.
Speaker 1:You mean, I can't lie to this guy the whole time.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately it happens.
Speaker 1:No, I know we're joking about that, yeah, but that's the truth that you've got some people who are just going to sit there and constantly lie to that person, not be real, not be open, not be honest with them, and and you're going. Man, look, and at some point you can just tell they're a fake right and and I think especially in today's generation of younger people, they can see through that of younger people, they can see through that fakeness. Now, they can see through that. Oh, you're just trying to tell me what it should look like. I want to hear genuine truth, what it's like, what happens when you go through this. What would you do in this?
Speaker 2:situation In military and law enforcement, like I was in, and so forth. There's a saying that has been around for years and that's stolen valor, stolen honor. It's where you insert yourself in a situation you were never in, and so you tell the story as if I were there, yeah, and so people begin to recognize you as something you're not and you know what. We do that spiritually too, and if I'm going to mentor someone, I can't use stolen valor. If I'm using your story, I need to say I might not use your name, but I need to say you know what?
Speaker 1:Let me tell you about someone I know, and just be honest, yeah, so I shouldn't go and say, look, man, when I was out fishing on my boat, first of all, everybody look at you and go, man, you're telling Richard's story.
Speaker 2:Or they would ask you if you use a pump, or you just blow that boat up yourself and so we can move past that conversation. But that was just ugly, wasn't it? This is how he treats me all the time. But I'm saying be honest. Yes, you are, but honesty is absolutely essential and you know what the truth is. If you're engaging me and you're telling me something I know good and well is not true, then how am I going to believe anything else? You have to say Thank you.
Speaker 1:That's key, right there Exactly. If I already know that you're fake, I just can't trust you with anything else.
Speaker 2:Well, what do I want to continue the conversation for? How are you going to speak into my life if you can't even tell me the truth about your fishing? I mean, we joke about it, but if you can't tell the truth about the non-consequential things, how are you going to tell me the truth about things that really matter? Thank you. And with that honesty, there does come a level of experience. So when I'm thinking about mentoring someone, I really want to know do I have experience that's going to help this person? I mean, let's be honest, if someone came to me and it happens often someone comes to me and says you know what I'm feeling like I might be called into ministry and I'd like to meet with you Now. Sometimes that goes well, sometimes it doesn't, and I'd like to meet with you Now. Sometimes that goes well, sometimes it doesn't, but I have had people sit down and I'll go well, what are you thinking? And honestly, if somebody came into my office next week and said I really feel like I might be cold into ministry and I'm thinking worship ministry well, me I'm sorry, I have a couple of guys on staff that would really do well for you to talk to.
Speaker 2:Let's see if we can get you tied up with Joey or Rhett. Both these guys have been worship pastors. Both these guys can deal with you, talk to you, but, brother, you're talking to the wrong man. All I know is Turn to page 12. Yeah, that's right. We're going to start verses one, three and five and I don't know how to help this person.
Speaker 2:I can help them with their call. I can help them clarify what God may or may not be doing. I can sit down and say scripturally you've got some obstacles you've got to cross over, but when it comes to helping them walk that journey, I don't have the experience for that and I got to recognize that. And it's okay. If somebody came to me and had an issue in their life that was just totally foreign to me, it's okay for me to say you know what, I'll be happy to sit down with you, We'll try to grapple with this together. But I want to be honest with you. I don't know. My mind can't even reach out there and connect with what you're talking about.
Speaker 1:But I do know someone, but I know someone and I've seen you point people to other people who actually know, and that's the clear, I think, honest portrayal of a mentor right there who is smart enough and wise enough to say man, I can't help you with this. Yeah, I mean, I've got Bible knowledge, I've got scriptures that can help you, but to walk alongside of you and mentor you through this, I can't do that. But I got a guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that's important. And I would also argue that if you're going to mentor someone, you got to be positive and encouraging. Yeah, all right.
Speaker 1:Yes indeed.
Speaker 2:I didn't say agreeing with their chosen choice, their lifestyles or their choices, no, no, their chosen choice, their lifestyles or their choices. But you know what you can always end a conversation with? I realize that life looks pretty dark right now, but let me tell you there is a light at the end of the tunnel and it's not a train.
Speaker 1:There is hope at the end of this.
Speaker 2:And you can encourage someone through that. And I think if you're going to mentor someone, you have to, and that goes down to being a good communicator and a good listener. But you can't really be a good communicator if you're not a good listener. They got to go hand in hand.
Speaker 1:Well, I wouldn't even know what to say if I'm not listening to the guy to actually hear what they're going through. I'm just now telling you and quoting scriptures at you and throwing Bible verses at you that probably have nothing to do with the issues that you're going through in your life.
Speaker 2:No one likes to be talked at. And let me tell you something you start talking at me and this conversation is going to end pretty quick, and it's actually going to end long before it ends, because, I promise you, I have checked out and I am looking for an exit ramp. And so James 1.19 tells us that we're to be swift to hear and slow to speak. And so one of the biggest things that I see consistently getting people in more trouble than they can possibly dig themselves out of they're giving opinions and they don't even know what they're talking about. And I tell people all the time and it's not unique to me, I mean, others have said it as well People are giving answers and they don't even know the question. And so what happens? You're not a good listener, you're not even listening to what someone is saying, and you're firing off all of this and, at the end of the day, you haven't helped them one bit?
Speaker 1:Not at all, because you're just busy talking the whole time and and truly you don't even know what the person's going through. Right, and, like you said, that person's probably, at this point, just turned off. Now, anything you do say, which could be some solid scripture that they need to hear they've already checked out because you haven't paid attention to who they are or what they're going through.
Speaker 2:And so you know, when we're talking about the mentoring relationship, whether you're the mentor or their mentee, if the one you're seeking advice from is not humble enough to admit quite honestly I don't know If they're not honest enough to look you in the eye and say I truly hear what you're saying, but scripturally this doesn't match. It just doesn't match and then wise enough to say consider this and look what the scriptures teach us. All of those are qualities that a mentor has to be willing to do. And if you're not willing but I can't do that if I'm not listening and I'm not communicating, you know good communication is more than our words. As a matter of fact, you know we've been told by social science that only about 7% of our communication is our words.
Speaker 1:And the rest of it is body language. Body language, facial expression, absolutely and so that's just so much.
Speaker 2:we could keep going with this. I know we're out of time, but mentoring, I would argue, is a natural flow from the accountability that we talked about. The accountability is a natural flow from the friendship. So as I develop friendships in my life, these begin in a casual sense before they go into a deeper sense, and I understand that. Then accountability comes out of that, and out of that accountability comes. This person Doesn't mean that I like them better or less than someone else, it's just this person. I recognize there's something in this person that they can speak into my life and that becomes my mentor, and so I think all of us have something we can teach.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. Are we willing to do it? Are we willing to do it, man? I love that and I know again, this is something we could talk about a lot. But before we actually shut this thing down, you and I were talking about Proverbs earlier, and I've got a verse about giving instruction to a wise man and he will still be wiser. Teach a righteous man and he will increase in his learning. That's Proverbs 9.9.
Speaker 1:But you were talking to me about a verse from Proverbs that talks about a man's folly, and it's one of those things where, even as you were talking, I was thinking well, how many people actually even know about folly? Folly is just foolishness. And I thought man as a mentor as we're talking about mentorship and we're telling people how to seek out a mentor, one of the important things is that person has got to be able to wisely instruct you, be able to give you the wisdom that you need to know to help you walk through life's situations. So I would like to, if you're okay with it, next week, let's talk about what that looks like. What is foolishness, what is wisdom, and how do we seek somebody who we can actually have in our life that understands those type of things?
Speaker 2:And yeah, I'd love to do that because, honestly, if you're seeking advice, quite frankly, from a fool, then you're just headed down a rat hole that's just going to get worse.
Speaker 1:And that's sad because I've watched that happen in people's lives, and these are pastors. I've watched people go to pastors and pastors. I'm probably going to get in a lot of trouble for saying this, but there are pastors out there who are giving foolish information Exactly.
Speaker 2:Well, they don't want to go to Scripture and at the end of the day, when everything's said and done and we're thinking through this, the only true help that I can give anyone is what God says. And if I'm not taking them to Scripture, then I'm taking them down a foolish route. Now we have to remember all good and perfect gifts come from the Father above, yes, indeed, and so I don't have to say chapter and verse for everything, but it's what I call sanctified common sense and sometimes we have to think about that. So next week, as we talk about this folly, this foolishness, it just takes us, I think, into the next logical step. We make friends. Our friends lead us to accountability. Accountability takes us to mentoring. Mentoring lets us begin to recognize people that have no business being in our life.
Speaker 1:That's good stuff. The reality is and what I believe everyone should have someone that they are mentoring and someone who's mentoring them. I think that's clear. That's exactly right.
Speaker 1:All right, guys, thank you so much for joining us here on the Reality Is Podcast, where we've been talking about real life and real faith here. Will you do us a favor? Will you like us? Subscribe to us? Download the messages, let us know that you're there. Comment, and we would love to hear from you, hear about topics that you would like for us to talk about. But this week, as we're talking about mentorship, let us know what you think about mentorship. Is there anybody who you're mentoring? Are you looking to be mentored, and is there somebody we could possibly connect you with to help mentor you and walk you through some of those struggles, some of those trials, some of those challenges that you're going on, that's going on in your life? We would love to be able to be there for you. We'd love to be able there to help you, absolutely All right. God bless you guys. Have a wonderful day. We look forward to seeing you next week. Goodbye now.