The Reality Is
Welcome to "The Reality Is," a podcast where the pastors of Crossroads Community Church gather to discuss the practical application of biblical principles in our daily lives. Join us as we explore how faith can guide us through the challenges and triumphs of real life. Whether it's relationships, work, or personal growth, we're here to help you live out your faith meaningfully. This podcast's premise is about how to apply biblical principles to our everyday lives. Tune in for insightful conversations that inspire and empower you to pursue Christ with every moment of your life.
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The Reality Is
Courage Under Fire The Spiritual Warriors of the Military
As Godfrey recounts his path to chaplaincy, bearing both the cross and the flag, we explore the rigorous training and steadfast commitment required to serve both God and country. The depth of duty extends beyond the pulpit and into the trenches of leadership, counseling, and unwavering confidentiality. The narrative unfolds to reveal the delicate dance between chaplains and commanders, the challenges faced without command support, and the triumphs when the value of chaplaincy is fully recognized.
Our discussion takes a poignant turn as we enter the battlefield alongside our non-combatant chaplains, bound by the Geneva Convention and their faith, as they navigate the precarious landscape of war zones. The poignant tales of chaplains providing solace, upholding religious freedom, and creatively tending to the myriad spiritual needs without proselytizing underscore the profound impact of their ministry. Godfrey's reflections stir in us a deep respect for those who don the chaplain's badge, serving as beacons of hope and purveyors of peace in the most trying circumstances.
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The fact is, even at the beginning of the chaplaincy, back in the 1700s, leaders recognized the value of chaplains. It produced soldiers who were more efficient in war. It produced better attitudes, better family life. So they understood the importance of the spiritual in the realm of the military. That's why it was established back in the day and the same now. It's like when you're praying for somebody, you're loving somebody, encouraging somebody, it makes all the difference in the world to them and ultimately it impacts the mission, the overall military mission for the greater good.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Reality is podcast, where we're here to talk about real life and real faith, and I have got a dear friend, brother in Christ, with me today, godfrey, who is going to be joining me. And Godfrey, before we get started, we were just joking and laughing and talking about, but not the thing we were just joking and talking about. You're like please don't bring that. But we were talking about what do you like to do outside of what you do as a chaplain? And you were saying, harley, like you are a Harley guy, did you get to go anywhere on your Harley this week?
Speaker 1:No, not this week oh my goodness. Yeah, sometimes the job can interfere with a good Harley riding experience, so but I do enjoy riding my Harley Davidson motorcycle However often I get the chance to, so I do enjoy that. I enjoy working with wood. I have a little shop at my house, so I enjoy building things and putting some things together. And my wife Kobe, she'll ask me to build some things here and there. She'll sketch it out for me and for the most part, I've been able to accomplish it.
Speaker 2:Can you actually build it, and if she's pleased, I'm pleased. Okay, good, that's all that really matters. Yeah, right, right. So how long have you been?
Speaker 1:riding your Harley Well, this particular Harley since 2020. Now I've been riding motorcycles since I was 13.
Speaker 2:You didn't start off with a Harley at 13. Oh, no, no, no, Okay.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking, man, how do you get that lucky? No, no, no. It started off with a little Honda 50, and then I graduated up to an 80. And then eventually, I rode my father's 400 Harley and not Harley, but Honda. And then, yeah, from that point on I've had bikes all my life, off and on.
Speaker 2:I've always desired to be a motorcycle guy. Like I had a motorcycle for a while, wrecked it. My wife was, like you're never riding again. And so I said, okay, well, how do I get to be a part of this group with you guys? And I was asking a Harley guy if I could come in with like a Honda or a Zuzzi.
Speaker 2:You're making the face. You're like no, you will not be welcome in the club, we'll love you, but it's not happening, okay. Okay, the real reason we're here today. I know we could talk Harley's forever. We were joking earlier like you and I used to sit down and we would have iron time together. We'd get together weekly in the morning and we would go for like four hours and have conversation. We don't have four hours today. Sure, we just we want to keep it simple. But we're going to talk about a word today that I think a lot of people have heard of but they don't really understand what it is, and that's a chaplain. And I knew, hey, I know a chaplain, I know a guy who's a chaplain. I'd love to have this conversation with you.
Speaker 2:And, as I often do, I look up in the dictionary of what Webster's dictionary says a chaplain is. So it said, and there were four different definitions. It says a clergyman in charge of a chapel, a clergyman who, officially, is attached to a branch of the military or an institution, a clergyman appointed to assist a bishop. And I thought, okay, clergyman, clergyman, clergyman. I want to look up the definition for clergyman because a lot of people listening probably go man. I really don't know what a clergyman is. So I looked up the definition for clergyman and it said a man of the clergy and I thought this is not helpful at all. So kind of vague. Yeah, it's extremely vague so. So I've got a bunch of questions I want to ask you about what it means to be a chaplain. But first off, what is a chaplain and what is the role of a chaplain?
Speaker 1:Sure a great question. A chaplain, especially in the military environment, is many things.
Speaker 1:As a chaplain, you're an advisor to the command, meaning that you know sometimes the commander has to make difficult decisions. Oftentimes they have to make difficult decisions, sometimes moral decisions, right or wrong decisions, how they conduct their command, how they treat the troops, how they lead the troops and so forth and so on. So a chaplain could come alongside the commander and say, sir ma'am, I think this is the route we need to take. I think this is the better choice than this choice. And so a chaplain can advise command. And one of the blessings of being a chaplain in the military is to have command that is supportive of the chaplaincy. I've heard horror stories from other chaplains where the command is not supportive of the chaplaincy and so therefore they kind of clip the wings of the chaplain, if you will, and so the chaplain is not able to completely fulfill his role and duty within the military environment. So I've had the blessing of being part of great command who has supported the chaplaincy, listened to the chaplains and take their cues from them a lot of times when it comes to moral decisions. So a military chaplain is an advisor. A military chaplain is also a counselor. I can't tell you how many times I've had the opportunity to counsel our troops, servicemen and women for various reasons. So they'll come into the office, they a chaplain. They need to have a chat with you. I have an issue, I have an issue with command, I have an issue with my family, I need financial assistance, I need any number of things to help them better do their job. And so the chaplain becomes that counselor to the counsel Lee and that liaison that connects them to the resources they need to be an effective member of the military. So, and one thing that the chaplain also offers is 100% confidentiality. You see, as a pastor in the state of South Carolina, you're a mandated reporter. You have to report certain things that you may hear. As a military chaplain, you are not a mandated reporter. I didn't know that. You provide 100% confidentiality. That means if you come to me and say, chaplain, I need to talk, whatever we talk about, I cannot share that with anyone, not even command. I didn't know that. The only caveat to that is, if you give me written consent, say, hey, chaplain, I want you to share this with whoever, but you have to actually write that out and sign it, allowing me to share what it was that we talked about. Okay, wow, yeah, 100% confidentiality. That's shocking information for me. Well, it is because when I was a pastor I was a mandated reporter. Yeah, if I hear something that you know put somebody's life at danger or something that's wrong or criminal, someone breaking I, have an obligation and a duty in the state of South Carolina to report that to the authorities. But as a military chaplain I can't do that. Oh my goodness, 100% confidentiality, right. So an advisory committee, I think, is going to be a good example of that. The advisor to the command, a counselor who provides 100% confidentiality to the Counselor, lee, whoever comes and it could be anything whatever they want to talk about it's got to be within the confine of that office. So, chaplain does an advisor.
Speaker 1:A chaplain is a counselor. A chaplain's also a preacher and teacher. Yeah, I'm able to do when I'm on, when I'm doing my duty on that weekend, I'm able to lead Christian worship services. So I can preach and and I do, and I lead Bible studies. I can do that as well, like if we're on orders and we're at the base for any number of weeks or what have you, I can begin a Bible study and of course it's voluntary, mm-hmm, I can't mandate anybody to come. We'll get more into that, but it's voluntary and so they come and we lead a Bible study. I can preach Again, counsel, advise the commander.
Speaker 1:I am also a liaison. Again Someone comes to me a chaplain I need some help. Would pay my bills this week. Yeah, hook them up with the right resource to help provide some assistance. Chaplain might have a problem with my marriage. You know, if I can't help them, I will connect him with another resource that may be more advanced in dealing with that particular situation to help them deal with the situation and the issues are facing within a married life.
Speaker 2:So you're like the go-to man, like if anybody has an issue with anything that they're going through, the comfort of knowing, hey, there's a chaplain that I can go to and speak to. You're that guy, absolutely any, any issues, anything's going on in their life, they can come to you absolutely 100%.
Speaker 1:And they can feel confident once again that what I share with the chaplain. You come to me and say I want to share something with you, chaplain, you can leave that office knowing that the chaplain has provided 100% confidentiality and whatever we've, whatever we've spoken about, wow, so yeah, so the chaplain's many things. He provides a minister of presence. Chaplain goes out where the troops are, wherever they are, and just that presence. He's that for the troops and so.
Speaker 2:So you keep talking about, like, the military Chaplain, because I know there's different type of chaplain. There's chaplains of baseball teams and sports teams and those type of things. I know you don't just do military, but I want to ask how do you become a military chaplain? Like, is that something you just say, hey, I rolled and I've got a heart for God and so I want to become a military chaplain.
Speaker 1:Right, right, yeah, so the, so the process, the road becoming a military chaplain is quite lengthy. Hmm, like you. Like you mentioned, there are chaplains and different organizations.
Speaker 1:You have workplace chaplains, hospital chaplain, hospice chaplains, which is what my full-time job is. So, yeah, somebody can say exactly what you said. Hey, I have a heart for the Lord, I have a heart for people. Mm-hmm, I want to be a chaplain to this group of people. And there's, okay, your chaplain. They give you a nice t-shirt, says chaplain on it.
Speaker 1:You're good to go, not so much in the military, okay, the military. You have to have an advanced degree. To be a chaplain, you have to have at least a master's of divinity or something equivalent. Okay, be a chaplain. Not only that which you know, and and I started late. So I went seven years straight school, oh, four years, undergrad, three-year seminary program, right, seven years straight with a wife, with kids and job. So it was quite arduous, right, and do you like school? Not anymore. So, yeah, so, but yeah, you have to have that advanced degree, a master's of divinity, at least 75, 76 hours, and they're even. They're up in the standards, even more since I've been in. So they really are. Not only that, you, first of all, you have to apply, you have to fill out paperwork for your security, clearance and paperwork you know, thick.
Speaker 1:You have to be endorsed by what's called an ecclesiastical body, an endorsing agency. An ecclesiastical body is basically a church or paratroops organization and what they do basically is they say okay, stamp approved, you're now a Missionary in the military, which is essentially what a chaplain is, a missionary in the military. Okay, so that endorsing agency Gives you their stamp of approval, say okay, you represent us and endorse an agency that give you the rules and regulations, what you can do and what you cannot do, as you're endorsed by this agency. So you have to be endorsed. You have to fill out and that's another stack of paperwork, so endorsement you have to have your seven, your your master's of divinity degree, you have to have security clearance and on top of that, you have to go to chaplain school. Now, one of the blessing.
Speaker 2:so this is on top of the seven years You've already done.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, you've got to do more school.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you must love school.
Speaker 1:Well, military school is a little bit different than your academia, but nevertheless it was school. You had it still study and and do physical things as well. So I started out my career again in the army and I was what was called a chaplain candidate. I entered the chaplain candidate program, which essentially is you're a student While in seminary you were a chaplain candidate. You're an officer, a lieutenant, and so they see, you see who's a student until you finish your seminary program. So funny thing.
Speaker 1:So I started college at 38 years old undergraduate degree as I was working in the chaplain, as I was working as a soldier, a military, police, mm-hmm. So I said, well, I was in civilian ministry. And I said, you know, I'd like to do something in the military related to ministry. And so I found out about a chaplaincy and I said, okay, I can be commissioned as a chaplain candidate by the age of 42. Okay, and so I was 38 years old, so four years. I had four years to get it done and I went straight through Summers and everything and I commissioned as a lieutenant August of 2010. I turned 43 October of 2010. So I was right on the line, right on the wire there, just made it.
Speaker 2:Now is this something you, because it sounds like you kind of started late, but you were already. You said you were doing civilian Ministry. So when did you decide, hey, this is this is something I want to do. I want to be a chaplain, because what were you doing before that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I was a military place, mm-hmm. I started my military career in 1984 as infantryman, went active duty in 87 to 90 at Fort Stewart, georgia. Got called back in 91 in support of Desert Shield. I got that letter in the mail Report of Fort Benning, georgia, no later than 31 January and it was 30 January when I got the letter.
Speaker 2:So I had to move by, yeah, benning graph in beer, germany I ground.
Speaker 1:War ended, I came back, I was a man, mp, I attained the rank of sergeant as a military police. So, yeah, I was in civilian ministry. I was called a minister around 2000. Okay, first church 2002.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, in that process of pastoral ministry on the civilian side, I realized that you know what, if there's something for me in the military that I can do, that's related to what I do in this on the civilian side. And again, I found out about the chaplain. See, I'm like man, mm-hmm. I enjoyed being a man, an MP, a military police. Well, I'm man. If I could minister to the troops in a similar fashion like I minister to Civilians and in the pastoral ministry, and that would be awesome to finish out my time to do the rest of my days as a minister In the military, as a chaplain.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and so is that point, I'm like this is possible. I have an education requirement. I got a meet and so forth, and so I had had great people come alongside me and and encourage me, say I can do this. And so I did it, man, and I was never look back, it was great. Again, it's just a providence of God and all this course, I mean of fact that I was able to get in school 38 finished by the time I was 42, which was the max age. Max age was 42 and I was 42 when I commissioned and only too much later turn 43. I mean, that's just providence of God.
Speaker 2:You know, and you like pushing things to the last minute.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know Some of your best work is done in the last minute.
Speaker 2:I guess so. So here's the thing, because you've been a military chaplain for how long?
Speaker 1:Yes, so I was commissioned in 2010. Okay, about 14 years as a chaplain candidate and then a full chaplain that wears across.
Speaker 2:Okay, so this may be kind of a weird question. Oh, so I don't know, I love weird question, you love weird question, so I'm just gonna come with it. Do chaplains go off to war and and Are they like, do they fight, do they get into combat, or are you just there ministering to the people who are actually in combat?
Speaker 1:Right, what does that look like? A great question, yeah, chaplains are non-combatants. We cannot fight who and war? That would be against the Geneva Convention, which is the big, great governing body and telling us how to do war. Okay, engagement, rules of war.
Speaker 2:So far got it so Chaplains are non-combatants.
Speaker 1:We cannot carry a weapon, we cannot fire a weapon, right, we just can't do it. Wow, there are chaplains that you know. They've been prosecuted, primarily prosecuted, for picking up weapons in combat zones.
Speaker 1:Wow because you wear that there, you're a non-combatant, okay, so you're not allowed to engage in combat. Now, what chaplains do have on the army side? We were called UMT's unit ministry teams, okay, and you had what was called a chaplain assistant, which was an enlisted man or woman, and that enlisted man or woman, they were trained With weapons, yeah, so essentially, that chaplain assistant was a security guard for the chaplain.
Speaker 2:Oh, so if you walk around with your own personal bodyguard, yeah, kind of.
Speaker 1:So if we're in a combat zone and chaplains go wherever the troops are, we're in a combat zone. That chaplain assistant was at our elbow Making sure that the chaplain was protected so the chaplain can do his work, hmm, and that chaplain assistant carries weapons, two of them, usually a sidearm and an AR or M16, and so they're qualified, oftentimes Expertly qualified, to fire that weapon and engage the enemy in the event that the chaplain faces the enemy and has to be Thrown to the ground while the chaplain assistant conducts a little Firefight there. Wow, on the Air Force side, they're called RAAs, religious affairs airmen. Okay, the same principle applies. The RAAs are also Trained in weaponry and able to shoot, and have to qualify with their weapon once a year.
Speaker 1:So if we are downrange, as we call it, in a combat zone, yeah the RAA is right there by the chaplain and providing that security for the chaplain so he can get to the troops and Minister to them, however he or she can Wow, yeah, yeah, no combatants.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did not know that. I'm just thinking, hey, you're in the uniform, I'm guessing you now you know that doesn't mean I agree with that Right now. I wish we could carry, but yeah, can't do it. But that's not we can?
Speaker 1:we can lose our commission, lose our jobs by doing that. Yeah, now. Now, on the civilian side, when I'm not in uniform, I can shoot all day long yeah, absolutely. But in uniform, when I'm wearing Chaplain cross, yeah, can't do it happen, I do it now. I can go and oftentimes the chaplain do. They'll go to the range where the other troops are firing their weapons. We can go there and provide support, yes, but I can't pick it up, I can't shoot. You know how the culture is today with video cameras and cell phones. I think if they catch a chaplain picking up a weapon, you're done. I can say bye, you're done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow, that's got to be really interesting. I never even thought about that, which is kind of one of those interesting questions I have for you. Yeah, but I remember going to joint base Charleston. Yeah, they do once a year, they do this pastoral Lunching and they invite pastors to come out and they kind of share what life is like for a chaplain on base or just in the military.
Speaker 2:And there was something very interesting that I learned because I'm thinking as a chaplain you know you are a Christ sharing Christian man who is going out and sharing Christ with people. And I discovered, no, there were chaplains who are of different denominations. In fact, I wouldn't say you can't share Christ, but it was one of those things where you can't force Christ on anyone. And I thought here you are and I know you've got a love for the Lord, you love sharing Christ. So what is it like if you're in the military and you are a chaplain and and somebody is asked for your assistance and they say I need you? I'm going through a crisis in my life right now and you know the way that can get out of this crisis is just by accepting Jesus. Fall across and then they'll they'll have a whole new life and a Whole better life, but you don't really get to to do that. So so what is it like being a Christian Chaplain on a military base and not being able to share Christ?
Speaker 1:Sure, Sure, great question. A couple things first. The primary role of a chaplain in the military is. Support the First Amendment. There are two clauses in the First Amendment that we support, and number one is the establishment clause which pretty much says the government shall not establish a state religion.
Speaker 1:They cannot tell you who or what to worship or how to worship. So we have to support that, that establishment clause. The second clause is the free exercise clause, which is akin to the establishment clause, which basically says Joey, as a Christian man, under the First Amendment you have the right to express your religious faith however you need to. And so under the establishment clause, we as chaplains have to be very careful that we don't say something or do something that can be misconstrued in violating that First Amendment establishment clause. So in other words, if you're one of my troops, for instance, and say well, joey, you know I don't know you, but I want to share Christ with you and I want you to become a Christian, I want you to put your faith and trust in Christ.
Speaker 1:Let's look at the Bible 1 Corinthians 15, where the gospel is clearly presented here. I can't do that because how the government sees that I'm trying to establish a religion, I can't do that. I can lose my commission and lose my job by doing that. So we cannot in any way shape or form, just like when it comes to worship services. We can't mandate people to come to worship services because of that reason. Oh, you're mandating them to come. So you're trying to establish a religion. That's a violation of the First Amendment, establishment clause. You see what I'm saying? Okay, so, in terms of sharing the gospel, we have to be creative. So, while I can't you've heard the term proselytize- and evangelize, of course.
Speaker 1:I cannot proselytize. I can't go to you and say, hey, let me tell you about my Jesus. Right, how sure are you that you would go to heaven if you were to die? Oh, I can't do that. But what I can do is wait. I can talk, we can befriend each other, and what happens oftentimes is you initiate a conversation. Yeah, hey, so tell me what you believe, chaplain. Oh man, when you do that, the flood gates are open. Okay, great Flood gates are open. I can start talking about Jesus, god, the Holy Spirit, the Bible, what it means to be saved, who is Christ, what he did. I can talk about any and everything related to my belief as a Christian man, but you have to initiate it. I can't initiate that because of the fact that maybe misconstrued, that I'm violating that establishment clause.
Speaker 2:So are you always looking for that opening? Is that kind of the okay?
Speaker 1:Of course, absolutely. And when we conduct Protestant worship services, you know if I'm leading, we'll have folks come in there and maybe some are in there that a little unsure about where they where they're going oh who Jesus is. So I can have a great conversation there. You know what I'm saying. So, but it's just a fine line for Chaplains. We can't go out there and evangelize the gospel like you could or I could, as a civilian pastor or a Christian. We have to be very careful and creative with that.
Speaker 1:Again, our role is to support the establishment clause because we're representatives of the government and so if we say something or do something that suggests that I'm trying to impose my religious faith upon you, I'm violating that establishment clause and I can get a lot of trouble. And the free exercise clause means my role and, Joe, you come to me, say you come to me as a Christian man and I may not be Christian, it doesn't matter. I'm a chaplain and my job is to provide for you, not to agree with you, but provide for you. Wow, Meaning that, Chaplain Ritter, I want to exercise my religious freedom, I want to practice my Christian faith. Can you help me find a place, find a space where I can do that Absolutely, Let me see what I can do for you. That's the chaplain's role. Got it, Because we've had, you know, we've had people come that you know are there Roman Catholic, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, there is even Wiccans out there, that you know they want to in the military.
Speaker 1:They want to practice their faith. Chaplain's role is not to agree with them but to provide for them, make sure they have a space where they can. They can practice their First Amendment right for exercise of religion.
Speaker 2:That's our role Now. It's tough at times.
Speaker 1:Oh what you want to say, as a Christian pastor, like you're going the wrong way, you're going the wrong way.
Speaker 1:Your, your path is destructive. Let me show you the real way I can do that. I have to show you and help you. Hey, this is we have some people, and that that even means it's it. Oftentimes, if we don't have a priest or someone in the Mormon faith on on the base, chaplain will even go outside off the base to try to find someone who's willing to come on base to serve the troops of that particular faith. The nomination so wow, yeah, it's, it's a.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you have to walk a line, but yeah, that's a real thin line that you've got, especially as a Christian man, knowing my goodness if I was just able to tell you the truth and get it there for you.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and sometimes that happens but we have again. It's a fine line. We have to be very careful Now because we don't want to lose our role or position, because we are making a difference, of course, and so if we step on our foot and we, you know, say something we shouldn't, we could, we could lose the opportunity, yeah, we don't want to do that.
Speaker 2:Now you said you've been doing this for a while and so have you had the opportunity to share Christ with someone who wasn't quite sure like what was happening in their life, and and they opened the door not you. You didn't go sharing Christ, you know, without their approval, but did you have anybody who's ever come to you and say I just want to understand what's going on? I don't understand life. I'm seeking, I'm searching, and you were able to share Christ with them.
Speaker 1:Sure, on the army side I had, I had a soldier come to me and, and he knew about the chaplaincy, he was actually interested in the chaplaincy and so he knew that the chaplains were there to support everyone best they could. And he had. He'd heard of me and even listened in on one of the messages that I brought to the group at that one point in time. And so after the message he came to me and said hey, you know, I don't, I don't know much about what you just said, the Bible is foreign to me and I don't know. I've heard of Jesus, but I don't know who he is. So that point in time I was able to share Jesus, the Jesus of the Bible, yes, not the Jesus as a fictional name or in storybook, but the Jesus of the Bible. And so I was able to share the message of Christ with that, with that soldier.
Speaker 1:Now I don't know if he ever came to faith, I don't know, Never had evidence of that, but I know that I shared the gospel with him, praise God, and I saw some lights going on in his spirit and his in his eyes when he heard what was going on. So that's gotta be. I pray that he did receive Christ, but I was able to share share the gospel. That happens.
Speaker 1:And that happens it really happens and it's a wonderful thing when it does. You're like, oh, this is why I'm here. Yeah, this is why I'm here. I have to walk the line, but, my goodness, that one person that came and inquired about Jesus is worth all the times that I'm not able to say something. Praise God for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm glad to hear that, and so I know you do chaplain on the military site you mentioned earlier. You're also do it on the hospice site and so that's got to be a completely different chaplain type of work, if you will, because now you do have the opportunity to really share Christ with these people. So when you talk to me a little bit about that I know earlier we were talking about how you get to be with these families, holding the hands of these people who are at their life's end and they just they need some type of hope, they need some type of guidance, and now this is a whole different area of being a chaplain for you, because you aren't walking the line Now, you are Telling them about Jesus. So talk to me about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I I'm a full-time hospice chaplain and it's it's while it's created. Sometimes you think about your job and jobs that you've had in the past and you're like, yeah, I think she got in there and I've had opportunities. But when I was able to Land this hospice chaplaincy job, I was just overwhelmed and overjoyed because I do, I get to minister alongside people who've been given a terminal diagnosis of six months or less, yeah, and and in granted, just like we were speaking about earlier, sometimes there are people who deny chaplain services. They don't want anything to do with the chaplaincy, anything spiritual, anything pertaining to God. I mean, you have atheists out there who deny God's existence. You have agnostics out there who are kind of indifferent. I think he may, he may not, who knows. And so you have those types of people who really just don't want a chaplain around.
Speaker 1:But then you have the others that that absolutely love the chaplaincy. They love the chaplain when he, when he comes into the door, he walks into the door to them. He or she is representing the Almighty God, he's a representative of the kingdom of God I love. And so you come in there and you can all, almost instantaneously, you see a sense of peace over them. You know they're. They get a smile on her face, a sense of calm over the faith. It doesn't matter if they've been given six months or less. Hmm, a representative of God is here, hmm, and at that moment in time you see a sense of peace and and calmness and a gentle spirit, and so that's one of the blessings that I have in the role that I play as a chaplain Hospice chaplain and so, yes, there have been times I've been able to share the gospel With those who have six months or less.
Speaker 1:There have been times when I've been able to counsel some of these precious patients that that were they. They they've put faith in Christ, but as they approach the end, they just want to make sure that heaven is their home. They want to make sure that god is real. We don't know what goes on in the brain If you've been given six months or less. There's a lot of things that can be difficult to deal with and to embrace. So I've had opportunity to and I bring a bible everywhere go and I always share scripture as much as I can. So I had opportunity to share in scripture with these and just Just reassuring them that they are saved if they've put their faith and trust in Christ and it's finished work on the cross, and so that gives them a sense of hope and peace. And a lady I visited with yesterday, in fact, she, uh, she's a believer and and, uh, every time I walk in she cries. When I leave, she cries.
Speaker 2:Okay, did she cry because she's seeing you? Oh no, there he is again.
Speaker 1:Hopefully, she's crying as tears of joy Appraise god, tears of joy and she's sad when I leave. Okay, because she's? You gotta remember. These people are in facilities, and, and many of them Don't even have people that come visit them. They don't Some do, though, and so this particular, uh, lady, she, she loves the lord and man. I said can I pray with you at the end of our conversation, and I counsel her man, she grabbed my hand so tight and just held on to it just as I was praying. She was speaking as well, and, um she, even after I finished praying and said Amen, she held on to my hand for a while and just just needed that. She said please come back, come back as often as you can, and I said I sure will, and that's great embraced her and and told her I love you, which I told most of them, I love them.
Speaker 1:I said god loves you, I love you and uh, you're, you're important and I try to Reassure them of that and even if they've been given just a few weeks left, you know, and and not all my patients can speak with me. Some of them have severe Alzheimer's and they can't speak, and you know they're just lying there and so I'll I'll still pray over them and and maybe hold her hand and so forth. So yeah, it's a blessing man. Um, that's so cool.
Speaker 2:I get to do this, yeah, yeah, and I think that's what you shared earlier with me. It's like it's not something I have to do, man. I get to do this for the lord. I get to be a representative of Christ, as we were talking about in our church service a couple of weeks ago. We are ambassadors. That's right, christ.
Speaker 1:And here you are, yeah, truly being that for these people and you know, in that, in the difference in the military chaplaincy is, I can't be exactly that. Yeah, I have to be careful. Yeah, and even within the military chaplaincy you have, you have chaplains who don't just wear the cross. You've got four major religions, uh, represented in the united states military. You have the protestant or christian chaplain who wears the cross. You have the muslim chaplain who wears the crescent moon where the cross is. Okay. You have the buddhist chaplain who wears the buddhist wheel, and then you have the jewish chaplains who wear the little stone tablet representing the ten commandments given to moses, and so on top of the tree, yeah, so you have four major Religious represented in the united states military. And so I wear the cross as a protestant, christian chaplain, absolutely. And so rome catholics wear the cross. Mormons and jojova's witnesses were where the cross and, believe this or not, universalists Can wear the cross as well. Yeah, that's I believe me, that's a struggle.
Speaker 2:I.
Speaker 1:Don't understand that. Yeah, but they're allowed to wear the cross. So, but, yeah, so the muslims wear the crescent moon, and the crescent moon Represents the fast of ramadan, the beginning and the ending, and also the journey to mecca. So that's what the crescent moon represents for the muslim chaplain. They're calling moms, okay, right. And so in the buddhist they wear the buddhist wheel has eight points on the wheel, mm-hmm, representing the eight full path to enlightenment, wow, right. And then, of course, again the jewish chaplain. Where's the stanza? And they had the six pointed star of david over there. I was gonna ask about the star of david. Yeah, so they were.
Speaker 1:There's four major religions represented in the united states military and they all have their lane, they all do their thing, but even a muslim chaplain, like I was sharing with you earlier that I have to provide Even a muslim chaplain, if a christian, if you go to this muslim chaplain, say a Um, serve chaplain, um, I'm a christian, um, I believe in jesus christ. I need a, I need a way, a space where I can worship that muslim chaplain, however Difficult it may be for him or her, however much he may or disagree with christian faith. That he has to provide, got it, that's his role, to allow you the first minute ride of free exercise of your religion.
Speaker 2:Wow, got one more question for you, sure, and I think I already know the answer, but I just wanna hear it out loud what is the hardest part about being a chaplain and what is the best part about being a?
Speaker 1:chaplain, yeah, sure, so we'll go with the hardest first. I think the most challenging part of being a chaplain you know the culture is evolving, becoming very inclusive. The military culture is as well. So as a chaplain, you see a lot of things that wrong, that are wrong, and you see a lot of you witness a lot of people talking about a lot of things that's wrong regarding religion and the spirit realm and all that, and to be silent and to not be allowed to attack that, to address that, that's extremely challenging. The military today is a lot different than the military I came up in in 1984. Very different, and so I've seen the changes over the years and it's difficult.
Speaker 1:It's difficult as a chaplain, as a man of God, a man of faith, representing Christ and the kingdom. It's difficult when people come to you and they're sharing things that you're like oh my goodness, you know you need to get back on track, you need to be. Let me share with you how you can remedy this, how you can deal with this better, and not being able to do that, I would say that is the biggest challenge for chaplains. In addition to that is not being able to be everywhere. That you need to be. You wanna serve people.
Speaker 1:If you have no desire to serve people, then you don't need to be in ministry period. So not being able to be everywhere all the time, that's challenging, because there needs all over, there wants all over, and so, and I love to meet those needs, and sometimes you can't, sometimes you have to talk on a phone when you'd rather meet in person and so and that's one of the challenges of being part-time chaplain Because sometimes you're called and asked to counsel or deal with situations and you're in your civilian job, you're not on duty, as opposed to being a full-time chaplain you're there all the time, so that would be a challenge too. You're only doing it once a month or twice a month, once a month, and so that's the challenge. Sometimes you need to deal with the troops and help them out but you're not able to be there all the time.
Speaker 1:Now, the good part is there are times that you can be there and the impact that you make and the stories that you hear in response to the impact you made on the troop sometimes a year or two years later hey, thank you, chaplain, you saved my marriage. Hey, chaplain, thank you for sharing Christ with me. Thank you for directing me to the proper resource because I was having some financial problems. I was having marital problems. One situation where the guy came to me, his wife took his newborn baby yeah, just randomly in the middle of the night, and gone. And he came to me in tears and chaplain, what do I do? I mean, it's gut-wrenching and it's hard.
Speaker 1:So you wanna have answers for these people, these wonderful people who've decided to put on a uniform and serve this country. You wanna have the answers for them. And sometimes you have to send them somewhere else because it's out of your lane. Sometime it's so severe and chaplains have to know, have to stay in their lane, so to speak, stay within your expertise and know when to send that person to someone else. A better hand-to-hand situation, but, yeah. So being able to hear those stories about how you made an impact and sometimes you don't know you make one until much later yeah, that's wonderful, kind of like parenting for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly oh thanks Dad for that.
Speaker 2:I hated you when I was there.
Speaker 1:But now.
Speaker 2:I love you and respect you. Years later, I see what you're doing, so, yeah, similar.
Speaker 1:So you're able to make an impact and it's so wonderful to hear that in later years.
Speaker 2:That's great. So you've heard some of the worst stories you could possibly hear, but you've also heard some of the best stories that you could possibly hear, and that's a good thing. It is it's a balance right. What I'm hearing and please correct me if I'm wrong it sounds like in a lot of these cases you are these people's pastor. Like you are the closest thing to a pastor A lot of these people were ever going to see.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you for saying that, because when you were asking me what a chaplain is, I didn't say pastor. But you're exactly right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you didn't say that, but everything you said sounds like what a pastor.
Speaker 1:You're exactly right, a chaplain is a pastor, and not only in the preaching, teaching, counseling, but just coming alongside folks and just shepherding them, just encouraging them, loving them, putting a hand on their shoulders if appropriate, and just saying, hey, you're not alone in this, you're not alone in this, I'm with you. And I'll often ask, hey, give me your number, let me call you and check on you. I'll do that and you're allowed to do that. Oh, I'm allowed to do that, absolutely, absolutely. They encourage stuff like that. Good See, the fact is, even at the beginning of the chaplaincy, back in the 1700s, leaders recognized the value of chaplains. It produced soldiers who were more efficient in war. It produced better attitudes, better family life. So they understood the importance of the spiritual in the realm of the military. That's why it was established back in the day and the same now. It's like when you're praying for somebody, you're loving somebody, encouraging somebody. It makes all the difference in the world to them and ultimately it impacts the mission, the overall military mission for the greater good, the greater good.
Speaker 1:One other thing I want to share with you. When I was talking to you about providing for you know, as a Protestant Christian chaplain, I have to provide for Muslim whatever. The only caveat to that is I'll provide for them to practice their religion, exercise their first amendment right, as long as their practice does not impede the military mission. That's the only time I can say sorry, you can't do that because that affects the Air Force mission. The Army mission.
Speaker 1:That's the only time they can't do that, so I haven't had that happen to me. But I know that is the rule. You see, I provide for you as long as what you're doing, how you're conducting your worship or your faith doesn't impede the military mission as a whole.
Speaker 2:So that's wanted to share that. Wow, thank you so much, man. I really appreciate your time. Is there anything, before we get out of here, that you could just share with us civilians? Because it sounds like a lot of what you're doing is something that we can be doing for other brothers and sisters who are in Christ, other people who come to our church. So is there anything that we can take away and say, hey, yeah, this would probably be the best way to do a little bit of that in our own lives.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would just say be intentional about connecting with people. Connect with people where they are, not where you want them to be. That's good and so that's important. That's one of the things in the chaplaincy that I've learned, and as a pastor as well, that you wanna go where people are okay, not just physically, but emotionally, spiritually as well and then walk them, walk with them together to where they need to be. So connect with people and be intentional about it. Don't just say I'm gonna pray for you, pray for them. Don't just say I'm gonna call you, call them All right, and just be very intentional about connecting with people, because people need people and people need other people to come alongside them and say people who need people, yeah, I'll let you do the same. Yeah, I'm not gonna go there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just connect with people. People need people and people need God's people in their life to encourage them and share with them the hope that you and I have.
Speaker 2:Mm. That's important. I love that man. Godfrey, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast this weekend. Thank you, guys, my pleasure For joining us here on the Reality is podcast, where we talk about real life and real faith and the real life of a chaplain, and so thank you very much. Thank you for joining. Hey, if you guys go on like subscribe, let us know that you're there and give us some topics that you would like for us to talk about, and we'd love to talk about those as well. For now, we say God bless you and have a great day. Wor 이상 sensitivity"].